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Maybe this latest algae bloom will get our officials off their sorry asses and get them to work solving this problem. These blooms have been going on for way to long with way to much foot dragging. Now there are a few hundred thousand people without a safe water supply maybe this will get their attention and they will actually start to address the problem with something more than just lip service.
Maybe now we know the reason the fishing has been so spotty this year.
People asking me if the fish caught now are safe to eat. Haven't found anything about that yet.
They are warning people to not have any contact what so ever with the water supplied by the city of Toledo. It has been on the local Toledo TV stations all day today. So if the contamination is coming from the lake water how are you going to handle the fish that you catch. How are they not going to be contaminated at least on the outside where you are handling them to remove hooks and to place them into your cooler. Probably the closer you are to the Toledo water intake the more pronounced the problem would be. I know yesterday afternoon there was a mild algae bloom in the area of B-can, it looked like a normal green algae bloom to me but I am no expert on algae blooms other than what they feed on is a by product of pollution in the form of phosphorous and nitrogen. Google Toledo a water problem and read what several sources have to say. It does not sound good to me. The toxins involved can damage your liver among other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Justretired
Apparently they have lifted the do not touch recommendation for healthy adults but have not lifted it for children or people with any type of immune system disorder. Obviously the water is bad and probably much worse than what they are telling the public. The less people know the better they like it. They probably would not be saying anything now if it was not for the serious health risks involved.
This situation brings to mind some of the things that transpired in the early 1960's. It is a wonder they have not closed some of the public beaches. Where are the state officials at on this matter.
On a lighter note it has been said that the latest water test showed an improvement in water purity over the previous tests performed earlier.
I normally would take what the ODNR had to say and be happy with it, but not this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firetiger
The article headlines to me are at the very least misleading if not downright dishonest. Obviously those headlines are the opinion of the Toledo Blade and were written for whatever reason a journalist writes those things.
The first three paragraphs leaves more questions unanswered than were addressed. 1. When was the last testing done?
2. When was the last time the city of Toledo had a water crisis that was caused by a HAB (hazardous algae bloom), one so bad that they told residents not to use the water because of the high levels of toxins in it?
3. The state ODNR representative Jeff Tyson is speaking about research that took place in the past, the same past that testing of the city of Toledo's water supply indicated it was still safe to drink. He went on to say that there were no detectable levels in the fillets/meat when that testing was done. Just when was that testing done?
Paragraph 4 has some troubling statements in it when compared to the first 3 paragraphs. That is that there are presently more tests being done at the Ohio State University to determine if there is a problem. That tells me they are unsure themselves and are doing this test just to be sure, That is kind of like playing Offence and Defense both at the same time while assuring the public everything is OK with their official statements.
I find the statement about the fishes Liver the most troubling of all! The liver is the last place in the body where a substance(toxins in this case stop) passes through or could also accumulate in the body, they only accumulate there after they have traveled throughout the rest of the body and are headed for the hallway leading to the exit door located on the fishes underside.
Another link I found
http://ohioseagrant.osu.edu/discuss/...18641#msg18641
The very last post in the thread contained in your provided link is the very point I was trying to make! The test results could vary from one day to the next depending if the sample tissues were taken just before a major algae bloom, during the middle of a major algae bloom, just after a major algae bloom or several days after a major algae bloom. An unknown variable, how long the tested fish had been in the affected water containing the algae. The liver would have to have the time needed to filter out those toxins and the higher the toxin levels ingested the longer it would take the liver to filter them out, the liver would only be able to accumulate and retain or eliminate so much of the toxins before slowing down the filtering process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firetiger
The species of fish would also have a very large impact on the level of toxicity!
For example we all know how fast a large school of walleyes can vanish within a time span of only a couple of hours, perch takes a little longer if at all, catfish don't move around all that much and would probably remain in the algae infested water until oxygen depletion drove them to better areas of O2 levels. Smallmouth bass would be another example of a fish that would not give up their home territory very fast or willingly. The more nomadic walleyes would probably be the least affected fish of any of those kept by the recreational fishermen as they are the most nomadic of them all.
So for me, the link to the first article you posted left more questions unanswered than were answered. To me, it was designed to sugar coat the facts about how the present algae bloom is affecting the food value and quality of the fish that are presently being caught and reduced to fillets for table fare. Obviously there has never been an algae bloom on the scale of what is currently taking place today, and just as obviously there has never been any testing on the quality or toxic levels of fish taken for consumption during an algae bloom of this magnitude.
I would not question the quality of a fish that was caught a few miles from the high concentration of algae as the dilution of the toxins by the amount of lake water would reduce the levels to below the dangerous levels that are present in the water near the Toledo water intake.
Lake Erie Charter Boat Association has been on the toxic algae issue from the beginning. For the last 3 years a group of Lake Erie Charter Boat Captains from the Maumee Bay to Kelly’s Island have been gathering water samples on a weekly basis, in conjunction with The Ohio State University and the OEPA. Last year we enlarged our scope to include taking walleye tissue samples where we collect the water. This testing was started in the height of last year’s bloom and was reinstituted three weeks ago and the Ohio State University is responsible for analyzing the tissue. There have been no reports of microcystin in the tissue of these fish.
Kevin
Wakina raises some very good points about the situation. I'm sure many would like to understand how this keeps occurring and then reliable recommendations to the public based on timely information.
Curious why Ohio State began testing fish again 3 weeks ago if it was related to the Sandusky or Monroe, Mi algae bloom, but no precautions or warnings were issued until this past weekend? When Ohio Sea Grant personnel make statements like this, it causes me to wonder how far down the rabbit hole do we need to go to get the real answer?
"However, fish subjected to high concentrations of algal toxins can have those toxins present in their fillets, at least temporarily (e.g., note this research by Schmidt et al. 2013). The bottom line is if you know algal toxins or a cyanobacterial/blue-green algae bloom to be present, it's probably prudent to be conservative in your choices to harvest and consume fish."
I have concerns with the statements begin made by the authorities, and I am certain that the wording was intentional.
"if the fish is cleaned properly" it "should be safe for consumption"........... "Should"?
"Mother Nature has been waving a big, red flag about this issue for quite a while, and it looks like nobody was watching or paying attention.” Guess they got that one right.
Certainly farm runoff and sewage overflow are the major contributors in conjunction with global warming. What irritates me is the number of "anglers" pissing in the lake. It's quite easy to take a plastic soap jug in the boat, pee in the jug AND dump the pee into a toilet. Thousands of fishermen peeing into the lake every day doesn't help the situation and that is at least totally preventable.Quote:
Originally Posted by wakina
Below are a couple links about Grand Lake St Marys they have been battling this for years and no results. If you look at it from google earth the lake is bright green. I hope this isn't in the future for Erie.
http://www.nbc4i.com/story/25590532/...-lake-st-marys
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...ing-again.html
Here is a quote from the following link to a web page. The canal system they are talking about is the Miami & Erie Canal. This page has a brief but direct history about Grand Lake St. Marys as well as the city of St. Marys. I bring this up because Grand Lake St. Marys currently is nothing less than a cesspool,(please Google it.) one which empties part of its overflow into the Maumee River Water Shed and eventually into Lake Erie. To the best of my knowledge both spillways are still functional.
"Grand Lake St. Marys is a part of the divide between the north and south waterways of the canal. Water flowing out of the canal to the east went eventually to Lake Erie and the other Great Lakes, while water flowing south and west found its way into streams and rivers (the Ohio River, for one) that are a part of the Mississippi River system."
http://www.stmarysdevelops.com/life-in-st-marys/history
Here is some info on the Maumee River Water Shed for those who would like to learn more. As you will be able to see by the maps there is a very complex and integrated set of problems involved in cleaning up the water shed.
http://www.epa.gov/greatlakes/aoc/maumee/index.html
http://uppermaumeewatershed.com/about-us.html
http://www.mrbplg.org/maps.html
Wakina is correct lake at. Mary's is on the continental divide, something to remember in this case Is if there is no precipitation in that region then there is no water to move in or out, the water, nutrients have no where else to to go except the feed the algae in their case can become so extreme.
talking about the symptoms but not the true reason for these algae blooms?
Thank the shippers for dumping there salt water+ creatures, ballasts, into the Great Lakes and replacing it with fresh water then selling such water in Caribbean ports.Where is the oversight at the Gulf of St Lawrence requiring all ships to dump there ballasts before entering our Lakes?
The zebra muscle has been born by this and each one of these little creatures filter 1 litre of water each day.With literally trillions upon trillions of these in Lake Erie, there's been pros and cons of having this invasive species dumped into our lake. With crystal clear waters of which we have been experiencing the last decade or so thanks to the zebra, its understandable why these algae plumes exist.
Scientist with profligately espouse the hyperbole that farmers are the reason for this situation. They always go at an alternate source to fear monger the populaces. Once it was all about the factories, now its the farmers. Such hubris, its pathetic.:mad:
Most urban green keepers put 1000x more fertilizer and pesticides on there lawns than a farmer puts on one acre of there land, we don't here that by these so called scientists of expertise!
lol, that's crazy dude, you are referencing a pimple on an elephants azz.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobd47fish
There's no such thing as global warming or climate change, it's called "weather dude"! Been going on for ages and ages.
Climate scientists can get tomorrows weather right let alone next week, next year, next decade, next millenium.
I see your a republican. You obviously bought into the Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity insight a few years ago that there is no global warming. Currently, for your information, 98% of climatologists agred that global warming is here to stay. But no matter what I or any of the climatologists (as opposed to your local weather forecaster) say, your too ignorant to look at the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by limitlypps
Can't cure dumb.
Alright, who let Al Gore onto our forum ?Quote:
Originally Posted by bobd47fish
Excuse me! Where in this forum or anywhere else have you heard that it is entirely the farmers fault? But lets be clear farming is a major source of the problem, simply because of the vast amount of land that is farmed vs residential areas. I am not saying all farmers are responsible and neither are those who study the problem! If you read one of my previous post you will see that I have put the blame where it belongs.Quote:
Originally Posted by limitlypps
What is causing the severe algae blooms in Grand Lake St. Marys if it is not the run off from farms. There are few is any industries and factories surrounding the lake or located within its water shed. It is almost entirely farmland and feedlots. The residents that border on and get their water from the Lake do not need to have the Green Lawn Guys to spray their lawns, they only need to used the lake water to get all of the needed fertilizer to maintain a beautiful lawn. At times the toxin levels in the lake are 100 times the OEPA standards for safe drinking.
Testing of the farmlands has shown that even before the application of fertilizer the land already has more than is needed to sustain a high yield crop. The lake (actually a manmade reservoir) is a closed system with the added spillways to control flooding during periods of heavy runoff from rain and melting snow and to maintain and retain enough water to facilitate the recreational and residential needs of area residents and tourists.
Shippers dump the ballast water as they enter the Great Lakes system to gain added flotation and decrease the ships draft so they do not run aground in the shallower Great Lakes and locks. Once their cargo is unloaded and refilled with the cargo headed to other markets they then head back out and on to their next port of call.
The algae problem in lake Erie has been around for a lot longer than the zebra mussels have been present in the Great lakes. Zebra Mussels are a fresh water species and do not fare well in salt water. You have it backwards! They want the trans Atlantis cargo ships to empty out the freshwater ballast from Europe and replace it with salt water on their way to the Great Lakes to kill the fresh water species that may still be in the ballast tanks and then do the same as they enter the St Lawrence Seaway and refill with fresh water from the Americas.
Here is an excerpt from the link that follows, I have highlighted the important part.
http://www.protectyourwaters.net/hit...bra_mussel.php
*As a native to Russia, zebra mussels were introduced into the Great Lakes in 1985 or 1986, when one or more transoceanic ships discharged ballast water into Lake St. Clair. Being a temperate, freshwater species, the zebra mussels found the plankton-rich Lakes St. Clair and Erie to their liking. Since this time, zebra mussels have spread throughout the Great Lakes.*
I don't know if their is global warming or not! But what I do know is that weather and climate are, even though they are related, 2 different things. Climate is studied by Climatologist and is based upon weather conditions over the long term past, and weather is studied by Meteorologist who try to predict short term future weather conditions based upon current weather conditions and trends!Quote:
Originally Posted by limitlypps
Climate Is an average of the past prevailing weather conditions of a region, such as high and low temperature, air pressure, humidity, precipitation, sunshine, cloudiness, and winds, averaged over a series of several years. It is a long term picture of the past weather conditions for a given region and arrived at by averaging those accumulated facts together. The key words in climate is Average Past Weather Conditions, with a lot of emphasis on Past. What climate does not include is future weather but it does include the forecast for future climate conditions based upon changes in the averages over the long term past. If the average keeps going up and has for several years then there is cause for concern since the long term averages have went up. Based upon that trend in the long term average it is reasonable to assume there is a change in progress and the future climate can be forecast with reasonable accuracy.
Weather is the current conditions of temperature, air pressure, humidity, precipitation, sunshine, cloudiness, and winds. Weather forecasting is the not so accurate science of predicting what the current conditions are going to do in the future over the next several days as they travel and move from one region to another. It is a prediction based upon current events and what is currently taking place to try and determine what is going to take place tomorrow. With a lot of emphasis on short term future
This site showed up in my email box today form a user name and Email account that I do not know! So if that person is reading this post thank you for the contribution for our discussion! Here is the link to the site.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...hange-science/
Found this site today also!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5647824.html
.
Well thought I would jump in here and add a couple of things which are public knowledge but kept under wraps as well as possible. The city of Toledo is the number one contributor to the problem in lake erie. They are now and have been for the last 50 years. The sewer system in Toledo has not functioned properly for the past thirty years. Toledo pays EPA fines each year because they "can't afford" to update and replace the sewer system. Studies over the past 15 years show that Maumee and Ottawa rivers contribute to more than 80% of the pollution in Lake Erie. In fact the last open EPA research from around 10 years back, claimed if those two rivers could be closed off, the big lake could clean itself within 5 years from the water flow
from the Detroit river. Toledo was one of the first cities to violate EPA regulations and tie their sanitary and storm sewers together to handle excess rain water and the city has been paying yearly fines for that for quite sometime. When heavy rains occur the entire sewer system including sanitary run directly into the river without going thru any treatment.
Now if you have paid any attention to the latest indirect comments the city has now gotten control of the chemical balance to make the water Ok to drink. Why was the balance allowed to get out of control? I know somebody screwed up. Have a friend that used to work in the area of water and sewer for the city and has said many times....todays water standards would not meet those set in 1960 as they have been lowered every few years to allow the water to pass. All I can say is I am certainly glad I got out of there many, many years back, and I have my own well and have for 40 years..No regrets!
A little information that is public knowledge as well but dr. Jeffery Reutter has he easiest to understand research in my opinion, never added a link before hope it works
http://ohioseagrant.osu.edu/people/j...%20031314.pptx
The link worked just fine and was / is very informative. Thank you for sharing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoon addiction
I live on Grand Lake St Marys. As much as I hate to admit it, it is a cesspool. We call it Slime Lake or the Muck Hole. Despite that, the water quality has improved quite a bit this year. They have dumped who knows how many hundreds of tons of Alum into the lake and have 4 dredges working all the time. It is improving. The thing to remember though is that it is shallow. Yea, yea Lake Erie is shallow but Grand Lake St Marys is super shallow. It is 13,500 acres and have an average depth of 4 feet. Deepest spot is barely 7 feet. They implemented many new laws for manure applications and filter strips around creeks etc. last year. In my eyes, it has helped. But those new regulations are just here tho and not statewide. To get everyone in the Lake Erie watershed all in line with these practices may be easier said than done. Here's a few pics from a year or 2 ago of Grand Lake. Let's hope the same thing does not happen on Erie. By the way, Grand Lake has alot more walleye than most people think!
After reading most of the posts, and visiting most of the links provided in some posts, I had to make a comment.
There is some misinformation in almost all the posts and most of the links. This does not surprise me, as I've been dealing with it for 40 years, 30 years as both a professional in the ecology field and as a concerned and informed outdoors person. When I was doing environmental education I often spent a third of my time correcting people and kids on what they thought was fact.
First, as to any danger of eating fish during a Lake Erie algae bloom, the EPA states "The consumption of fish flesh (muscle) is usually considered safe but there are fish species and fish organs, especially the liver, and stomach/intestinal contents which may contain considerable amounts of cyanotoxins." - http://www2.epa.gov/nutrient-policy-...ogical-effects .
The Toledo drinking water event was primarily caused by a "perfect storm" of events, which included the time of year, past week weather conditions (rainfall, wind and current direction, amount of sunlight, etc.), and the growing amount of algae blooms. To put it simply a relatively small bloom of toxin producing algae sat right on top on the intake for almost two days. This was always a possiblility and it finally happened.
Please do all of us a favor. When you post information that is science based please include the source of that information (some of you did). If you make a comment, make sure you have the facts correct.
I'm not saying that the posts were entirely incorrect, just that there was enough incorrect information on this thread to leave people either confused or taking away incorrect information. Most of the info in the posts was correct and helpful.
West Basin
It seems to me from what I have gathered that there is some incorrect information in this post. I know the city of Toledo has combined sewer overflows (CFO) but they are not even close to the number 1 contributor to the problems in Lake Erie, though they are a contributor. Toledo settled a case with the EPA more than 10 years ago and agreed to system improvements and have been implementing them for years. Detroit which has I believe the biggest sewage treatment system in the country dumps far more sewage in the lake than Toledo and has done far less to fix their problems. In 2011 they dumped more than 4x the CFO into the river and ultimately the lake than Toledo did. I don't have many facts about the Maumee river's contribution but I do know that the Maumee has the greatest drainage area of any river in the Great Lakes system and a good portion of it is farm land. That said I wouldn't be surprised if the Maumme is the greatest contributor to the problem in Erie though not chiefly due to Toledos treatment system. Here is a link to a report that outlines the CFO problem. http://www.greatlakes.org/document.doc?id=1178The Maumee drains over 8000 square miles of land. That's a lot of run off from yards, golf courses, farms, animal operations, etc. The Maumee is said to supply about 5% of Lake Erie's water but about 50% of the phosphorous.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshot
I would like to see a link or source for the claims made about the water standards being lowered since the 60's too. I have lived here all my life and I know the standards for water discharges have been getting more strict for decades. I would be shocked to see evidence the the EPA has lower any standard for drinking water. I can't find where they have in my researching. A link perhaps?
Now I don't work in the city water treatment dept. but the understanding I have based on the chemistry is the problem was twofold. The carbon beds that would typically remove the toxin were not doing the job. Probably an issue with the levels on the raw water I would guess. Also chlorine can oxidize the toxin the way I understand it. We tested the city water at work and we could not detect any free chlorine so I would guess they chlorination system wasn't up to the task or they could not put enough in and meet the test numbers at the plant. The EPA limits the chlorine level in treated water. If you have the level at the max and your water goes out with a substance that the chlorine will oxidize the chlorine will be consumed and your won't detect any in a test. That is our suspicions at work and we have some really smart chemist on staff. We make a liquid based food grade product so we could not produce at that time.
I'd like to see the sources of these claims. I think they are off base a bit though I certainly don't claim to be an expert.